tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11231724.post111565109685206616..comments2023-10-31T07:13:33.019-04:00Comments on VivaNedFlanders: Polygamy and Masonry: Mormon paradoxesNFlandershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11284950332573759898noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11231724.post-1118012082898457862005-06-05T18:54:00.000-04:002005-06-05T18:54:00.000-04:00Thanks for your comment, Heather. I was almost con...Thanks for your comment, Heather. I was almost convinced, but not quite. <BR/><BR/>Again, quoting from Jacob 2:30:<BR/>"For if I will... raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."<BR/><BR/>This is the sum total of good things said about polygamy in the Book of Mormon. Now, I will concede that the "otherwise" in the verse helps your case. But, I must point out, that "otherwise" is the only case you have.<BR/><BR/>The list of words Jacob uses in the rest of the chapter to describe Nephite polygyny are: whoredoms, abominations, wickedness, and iniquities. While it is certainly possible to interpret the whole of Jacob 2 as a selective condemnation of a specific practice of polygamy, I don't find that explanation very convincing. <BR/><BR/>Jacob says that the Lord delights in the chastity of women (Jacob 2:28). I think this is a problematic passage for other reasons (what about the chastity of men?) but does this mean that during 1831-1890 the chastity of women was somehow not held in the same regard?NFlandershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11284950332573759898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11231724.post-1117816614481174882005-06-03T12:36:00.000-04:002005-06-03T12:36:00.000-04:00It's not a contradiction at all. The scripture sa...It's not a contradiction at all. The scripture says that David and Solomon had many wives and that was an abomination. For one thing, one has to wonder just which "abomination" was meant. There are four or so words in scripture that have been translated as "abomination" in English. The one used in Leviticus to discuss homosexuality carries a meaning of "character flaw"-- like greed or alcoholism. <BR/><BR/>For another thing: What about the other patriarchs? Abraham had two wives, Sarah and Hagar. He wasn't condemmed as a polygynist. Israel himself-- the one who had the 12 boys from whom the 12 tribes came-- had four wives, the most famous of which were sisters. Israel wasn't condemmed either.<BR/><BR/>"<I>For if I will</I>, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I shall command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."<BR/><BR/>It's not an "escape clause." It's God's word to His people. <I>If He commands</I> it to be done it is not an abomination. This sets up two very important ideas. One: That polygyny is not to be practiced unless God commands it. It is not to be practiced for vanity or lust. Two: That sometimes God commands it and <I>sometimes He doesn't</I>. Those who broke from the church when the church ceased to practice polygyny failed to listen to God when they ignored that passage. Sometimes polygyny is necessary and God will institute it. However when it is <I>not</I> necessary He will discontinue it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11231724.post-1115735148939418082005-05-10T10:25:00.000-04:002005-05-10T10:25:00.000-04:00First of all, let me state that I am not trying to...First of all, let me state that I am not trying to call Mormons the Gadianton Robbers 2.0. We don't use secret/sacred symbols between us on a day-to-day basis and we certainly don't use them in criminal or immoral ways. But we do have them, even though they don't function in the same way.<BR/><BR/>Based on the T&S thread, many people have noted the similarities between the GR and the Masons. Many people have also noted the Masonic elements in temple worship. I am simply drawing a line between all three. If we accept the expansion theory that Blake proposes in the T&S thread, that the GR passages reflect Joseph's (or Joseph's environment's) antipathy toward Masonry, how do we reconcile that with the heavy influence of Masonry on the temple ceremony?<BR/><BR/>Nshumate-- While you are right that Jacob 2:30 could be interpreted as an escape clause, I think it is pretty ambiguous. Especially when you compare it with the completely unambiguous 30-odd verses calling polygamy "whoredoms," "abominations," and "wickedness."<BR/><BR/>I am not condemning Joseph for practicing polygamy. I am just noting the apparent contradiction.NFlandershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11284950332573759898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11231724.post-1115684793238306312005-05-09T20:26:00.000-04:002005-05-09T20:26:00.000-04:00Yes, these are legitimate concerns. One interesti...Yes, these are legitimate concerns. One interesting point is that I have never encountered any use by LDS paralleling the Masonic use of secret signs as a means of identifying fellow Masons (as seemingly referenced in Helaman 6:22). On occasion I'll get a Masonic-grip handshake from someone at church, which I find to be out of place, even offensive, at an LDS meetinghouse. Sooner or later I'm going to call someone on that when it happens and get an explanation for just what they think they are up to.Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16545582642775796073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11231724.post-1115672643099951352005-05-09T17:04:00.000-04:002005-05-09T17:04:00.000-04:00You're right that it might actually argue for acie...You're right that it might actually argue for acient origins considering how early poligamy was introduced.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11231724.post-1115668737717813112005-05-09T15:58:00.000-04:002005-05-09T15:58:00.000-04:00True, J. The scriptures are filled with problemati...True, J. The scriptures are filled with problematic passages. It just seemed remarkable to me that these two things were part of the founding document of Mormonism, but didn't seem to influence what came after.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure if it argues for or against the idea of ancient origins.NFlandershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11284950332573759898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11231724.post-1115667634988193112005-05-09T15:40:00.000-04:002005-05-09T15:40:00.000-04:00We also have the whole "Thou shalt not kill", unle...We also have the whole "Thou shalt not kill", unless it is genocide in Canaan thing.<BR/><BR/>Agreed, though, it makes for interesting dynamic. I'm reading <I>In Sacred Lonliness</I> right now, which has given me pleanty of contradictions to mull over.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com